Marek Olszewski: Celo simplifies crypto with phone numbers as identifiers, cheaper fees than Solana, and a focus on peer-to-peer payments | Bankless

Key takeaways

• Celo was created to address the limitations of building scalable, user-friendly applications on Ethereum.
• The platform allows users to pay for gas with stablecoins, simplifying transactions.
• Celo uses phone numbers as identifiers to make crypto transactions more accessible.
• It is positioned as a consumer-friendly alternative to Ethereum with lower transaction fees.
• Celo’s focus on peer-to-peer payments and global partnerships aims to increase adoption.
• Pivoting is a normal part of startup growth and should not be stigmatized.
• Celo has consistently focused on peer-to-peer payments and developing economies.
• The evolution of crypto payments is driven by cheap block space and stablecoins.
• Euphoria offers a unique trading experience with real-time social trading features.
• Stablecoins provide immediate access to capital, unlike traditional credit systems.
• Minipay is a cost-effective solution for international payments and currency risk management.
• Crypto incentivizes collaboration among companies in emerging markets.
• Local currency stablecoins are crucial for a bankless ecosystem.
• Ethereum is expected to become the settlement layer for the entire internet.
• Self-custodial wallets and civil resistance mechanisms are essential for widespread crypto adoption.

Guest intro

Marek Olszewski is CEO and co-founder of cLabs, the company behind the Celo blockchain, a mobile-first Layer 2 network designed for fast, low-cost payments globally. He previously co-founded Locu, a business management platform acquired by GoDaddy in 2013, where he served as CTO and VP of Engineering. As president of Valora, a mobile-first crypto wallet built on Celo, Olszewski has been instrumental in driving real-world adoption across emerging markets through partnerships like Opera’s MiniPay.

Celo’s approach to user-friendly crypto

• Celo was designed to facilitate peer-to-peer payments by creating a mobile wallet on Ethereum, leading to its own blockchain. “We started by looking to build a mobile wallet on top of ethereum… it was very obvious back then that we couldn’t build something that was normie friendly and could scale to you know billions of people on ethereum back then and so that’s ultimately what took us down the path of building our own l one.” – Marek Olszewski
• Users can pay for gas with stablecoins natively on Celo, simplifying transactions. “You can pay for gas with stablecoins on celo natively without account attraction… we wanted it to just be really easy for normies to be able to transact.” – Marek Olszewski
• Celo’s protocol uses phone numbers as identifiers instead of complex addresses. “We also realized that address based identifiers are just too complicated for most normies and so that took us down the path of developing a protocol that allowed you to use phone numbers as your identifier.” – Marek Olszewski
• Celo is becoming a consumer-friendly alternative to Ethereum, offering cheaper transaction fees than Solana. “You can think of celo now as really kind of becoming the ethereum kind of alternative to that and you know we’re actually cheaper even than solana when it comes to to transaction fees.” – Marek Olszewski
• The focus on peer-to-peer payments and partnerships will drive Celo’s adoption in global markets. “It just makes it super easy for for anyone to effectively have a venmo like experience regardless of where they live.” – Marek Olszewski
• Celo has maintained a consistent focus on peer-to-peer payments and developing economies since its inception. “Something about celo is that celo seemed to like identify p to p payments and kind of like also like developing economies and has stayed just locked in on that focus since the get go.” – Marek Olszewski
• Payments will soon become as seamless and universal as sending text messages. “You will very soon, I’m pretty certain of it, be able to send value stable value to anyone in the world and have that value be immediately useful for the recipient in a way that works for pretty much everyone even normies.” – Marek Olszewski
• The excitement around crypto was initially driven by its potential to enhance financial inclusion. “Back then everyone was talking about how crypto can advance financial inclusion how you know it’s just gonna change the world for everyone who lives in a place where you know they have inflation or they have kind of an unstable government.” – Marek Olszewski

Euphoria’s unique trading experience

• Euphoria allows users to trade based on real-time price movements with a grid-based interface. “Euphoria takes real time price charts and projects it over a grid of squares you tap the squares that you think the price will enter in just five to thirty seconds in the future.” – Marek Olszewski
• The platform offers a social trading experience, enabling users to compete with friends. “On Euphoria you’ll be able to compete with friends using Euphoria’s real time social trading experience allowing you to go head to head with your friends.” – Marek Olszewski
• Euphoria’s trading mechanism differs from traditional platforms by focusing on short-term price predictions.
• The social aspect of trading on Euphoria could attract users looking for interactive experiences.
• Euphoria’s innovative approach highlights the potential for gamification in trading platforms.
• The platform’s real-time features enhance user engagement and provide a dynamic trading environment.
• Euphoria’s unique interface simplifies trading for users unfamiliar with traditional methods.
• The platform’s focus on social interaction may lead to increased user retention and growth.

Stablecoins and their impact on payments

• The evolution of crypto payments is tied to cheap block space and stablecoins. “I see cheap block space and stablecoins as the tech tree reason that crypto is now like really focused on the payments use case and everything’s kinda fallen out from that.” – Marek Olszewski
• Building a stablecoin protocol may have been a mistake due to credibility issues. “I think actually that stablecoin doing it ourselves in hindsight was maybe a mistake you know because we weren’t credibly neutral.” – Marek Olszewski
• Bootstrapping network effects is essential for stablecoin adoption. “It’s very difficult to to get everyone in the world to agree on what they want to use to transact you need to start in smaller markets grow those get really dense network effects and then use those to pull more and more people in.” – Marek Olszewski
• Stablecoins provide immediate access to capital for businesses, unlike traditional credit systems. “This is why stablecoins in Argentina are being adopted so heavily is because they get that access to that capital immediately upon the actual transaction going through.” – Marek Olszewski
• Minipay is addressing the last mile problem by integrating local merchants and providing virtual bank accounts. “Minipay spins up a virtual bank account for your local jurisdiction… and then they map that to your stablecoin wallet.” – Marek Olszewski
• Stablecoins can significantly reduce transaction fees in countries with high credit card markups. “Had I had stablecoins that fee would have been zero and it would have been a p to p payment between me and the merchant and stablecoins are getting adopted very heavily in Argentina because merchants found out that if they don’t do if they take stablecoins instead.” – Marek Olszewski
• Local stablecoins can provide a necessary unit of account that aligns with people’s daily expenses. “I think there still is value to having a unit of account that just matches your day to day expenses and and the way you think about the world.” – Marek Olszewski
• Stablecoins offer a more efficient payment solution in specific economic contexts, highlighting their practical benefits.

Minipay’s role in global payments

• Minipay has successfully onboarded users in emerging markets through its integration with Opera Mini. “Minipay has historically focused on the African continent large part because they have onboarded a lot of users who are using Opera Mini, which is their like high speed light browser targeting emerging markets.” – Marek Olszewski
• Minipay has proven to be a more cost-effective solution for international payments compared to traditional services like MoneyGram. “He came across MiniPay and realized that it was still I think 40% cheaper than MoneyGram.” – Marek Olszewski
• Minipay allows users to hedge against currency risk and inflation by keeping earnings in a stable currency until conversion is necessary. “He could keep it in dollars when he received it and only needed to convert it to local currency when he wanted to spend it.” – Marek Olszewski
• The global workforce will increasingly rely on solutions like MiniPay for easier payment processes across borders. “The world isn’t the workforce is becoming increasingly global but it’s still hard to pay people globally.” – Marek Olszewski
• Minipay enables global payments by allowing users to transact using local banking systems. “As long as they can receive a bank transfer or as long as the employer can or a client can send money to one of these bank accounts either in europe or the us then suddenly anyone in the world can start getting paid regardless of where they live…” – Marek Olszewski
• Minipay supports various use cases including freelancing, remittances, and savings. “There’s you know i think four different use cases we touched upon the freelancer use case there’s obviously remittance use case you’re sending money to family members… and then finally there’s this new use case that that manypay just launched called pay is local…” – Marek Olszewski
• Minipay allows users to continue their travels and transactions seamlessly even after losing their physical wallets. “He instead proceeded to do every transaction in kenya and then later nigeria because he didn’t cut his trip short… he actually flew to nigeria and continued he did everything with minipay…” – Marek Olszewski
• Minipay’s versatility and cost-effectiveness make it a valuable tool for international transactions and financial management.

Celo’s competitive positioning

• Celo has surpassed Tron in terms of weekly active users. “If you go to tether’s stats page you actually can see that when it comes to weekly active users celo is actually ahead of tron now we we peaked at 3,300,000.” – Marek Olszewski
• Celo is emerging as a strong competitor to Tron in the stablecoin payment space. “Celo is like Ethereum’s answer to Tron 100%. You know, I think Tron certainly had an earlier start and has done well, but you know I think we’re coming right, you know we’re nipping at their heels and in some for some metrics even overtaking them.” – Marek Olszewski
• Celo’s user base primarily consists of ordinary people rather than large investors. “This sort of implies that you’re not dealing with whales so much as you’re dealing with ordinary people and ordinary wallets.” – Marek Olszewski
• The primary use cases on Celo include peer-to-peer payments, on-chain foreign exchange, and decentralized identity. “There’s three big use cases now on on celos so there’s p to p payments driven primarily by minipay there’s on chain fx driven primarily by mintos stablecoins and increasingly there’s decentralized identity through self protocol self dot x y z.” – Marek Olszewski
• Celo’s focus on peer-to-peer payments is a key strategy to drive on-chain adoption. “We’re building the best platform for for anyone to build a neobank on on chain and the way that we’re doing that is again by focused on being really laser focused on this one use case which is p to p payments.” – Marek Olszewski
• Celo is positioning itself as the best platform for building neobanks on-chain. “We’re building the best platform for for anyone to build a neobank on on chain.” – Marek Olszewski
• Celo’s strategic positioning in the blockchain ecosystem highlights its growth potential and competitive advantages.
• The platform’s focus on user-friendly solutions and emerging markets positions it well for future growth.

The future of blockchain and DeFi

• Ethereum remains the dominant platform for DeFi due to its liquidity and network effects. “Liquidity continues to go to ethereum and with the altium scaling centric road map now there is just a way for any chain…to tap into both liquidity but also into the network effects that ethereum has formed around all of the l twos that have been created.” – Marek Olszewski
• Interoperability between Layer 2s and Ethereum will improve significantly in the next couple of years. “That’s gonna be solved in the next year or two…all of the amazing z k tech innovation will effectively mean that all l twos will be able to…have you know like six second finality.” – Marek Olszewski
• Ethereum will become the settlement layer of the entire internet, not just web three. “I have just a lot of conviction that ethereum will become the settlement layer of the whole internet not just web three and it’ll take a while but network effects are powerful and it’s gonna happen.” – Marek Olszewski
• Competing as an L1 against Ethereum may stem from ego rather than strategic advantage. “I think that’s ultimately maybe just ego and as ethereum improves its finality as the benefits of all of those network effects that are being created just become so obvious to everyone.” – Marek Olszewski
• The trend of launching EVM-compatible alt L1s is becoming outdated, and projects should consider launching as L2s instead. “I’m just surprised when anyone launches an evm compatible alt l one. I think those days you know shouldn’t be long behind this. I think if you’re launching ebay machine you should launch it as an l two.” – Marek Olszewski
• If Tempo is successful, it will likely transition to become an L2, starting with the US market. “I suspect that it will be successful but probably only in in the us initially.” – Marek Olszewski
• The future will see a significant shift towards on-chain solutions in finance. “We are very aligned and in this belief that everyone will come on chain that you know fintechs finance everything will just be on on chain.” – Marek Olszewski
• The blockchain ecosystem is poised for significant technological advancements and strategic shifts, impacting future development and investment strategies.

Onboarding and identity verification in web3

• To effectively onboard everyone in the world into a web3 environment, we need civil resistant mechanisms that are accessible to all, not just those with financial resources. “If you wanna onboard everyone you need to be able to have a civil resistant mechanism that works for everyone.” – Marek Olszewski
• Biometric IDs represent the most trusted attestation of human identity today, which can be leveraged for onboarding in web3. “We wanted to piggyback on the most trusted attestation of humanhood that people have today and that right now is your biometric id.” – Marek Olszewski
• The self protocol allows for on-chain ID verification without third-party involvement, enhancing security and privacy. “Now with smart contracts you can do that on chain without that third party… you don’t have to give your data to someone who you know might lose it might get hacked.” – Marek Olszewski
• The self protocol can facilitate civil resistance and onboard billions into crypto using existing IDs. “It’s primarily great for civil resistance… onboarding billions of people into crypto using rails using ids that people have today.” – Marek Olszewski
• Zero-knowledge proofs will enable users to prove their age or compliance with regulations without revealing personal information. “You can prove you’re over a certain age… without revealing your birth date to anyone.” – Marek Olszewski
• Google Cloud will be using a new faucet that provides civil resistance and OFAC compliance. “By the time that this airs, Google Cloud will be using stuff for their faucet… they’re also working on a main net faucet which would be a first of its kind and that’s primarily possible because it just provides you such amazing civil resistance but also because you can do this OFAC compliance.” – Marek Olszewski
• On-chain identity verification and compliance solutions are crucial for the future of decentralized finance and user onboarding.
• The development of secure and privacy-focused identity solutions will enhance user trust and adoption in the web3 ecosystem.

The role of crypto in financial systems

• Crypto serves as a check and balance on central banks, providing individuals with alternatives when central banks misbehave. “He’s talking about how crypto almost is a like a check and balance on central banks globally right like if a central bank misbehaves then that only pushes individuals into crypto more.” – Marek Olszewski
• Crypto is fundamentally a freedom technology that allows individuals to hold governments accountable. “It’s an untold story… it’s a freedom technology… to export this choice and this freedom and to hold government officials and central banks accountable by having an alternative.” – Marek Olszewski
• Incumbent governments in emerging markets may resist the shift to DeFi due to their need to control currency systems for taxation. “Have we heard the last of the incumbents here… they want to lock their people into a currency system in order to tax them.” – Marek Olszewski
• Governments and banks prefer wealth to remain in local currencies to manage inflation and taxation. “That’s not necessarily what governments want that’s not what banks want they need the wealth to stay in their local currency in order to inflate it away in order to tax it.” – Marek Olszewski
• Crypto incentivizes multiple companies to collaborate effectively in emerging markets. “I think the answer is you need just a crap ton of companies with a crap ton of licenses in each of these markets to row in the same direction work together to create this amazing experience… it turns out that crypto is actually the perfect way to incentivize a lot of folks to grow in the same direction.” – Marek Olszewski
• The development of on and off ramp solutions in emerging markets has taken years but is now becoming seamless. “It took years for companies to form for companies to raise capital and to launch successful on and off ramping companies throughout a lot of these emerging markets… they’re now making it really easy for you to spend without the on and off app experience.” – Marek Olszewski
• The transition to a bankless future where on-ramps and off-ramps become less important will take time. “I think it will take a while… I would have thought it would have happened by now when we started eight years ago. I’m very bullish on this future obviously and we’ve been working towards it for a long time.” – Marek Olszewski
• The role of crypto in financial systems is evolving, with significant implications for governance, collaboration, and user empowerment.

The potential of on-chain financial solutions

• Bringing traditional banking systems on-chain can significantly enhance accessibility and efficiency. “There is just so many reasons why bringing this on chain will just deliver so much value to everyone.” – Marek Olszewski
• The launch of a perpetual decentralized exchange (perpdex) will enhance currency hedging and trading opportunities. “The real exciting thing that’s about to happen is there’s a perpdex that perhaps by the time that this airs will be live.” – Marek Olszewski
• The on-chain foreign exchange market is just beginning, with significant growth potential ahead. “We are 0.00001% of the way in the on chain fx market like we’re just getting started there’s no way this crypto thing is done.” – Marek Olszewski
• Local stablecoins can provide a necessary unit of account that aligns with people’s daily expenses. “I think there still is value to having a unit of account that just matches your day to day expenses and and the way you think about the world.” – Marek Olszewski
• The foreign exchange (FX) market is the largest financial market, with trillions exchanged daily, highlighting the potential for on-chain currency conversions. “The fx market today is I think the biggest financial market in the world… there’s now on the order of $9,000,000,000,000 exchanged every day… that’s in the quadrillions.” – Marek Olszewski
• Investors may have a better understanding of local currency performance compared to meme coins. “I would postulate that you probably have a better sense of how your local currency will perform relative to other currencies than you might have when you think about how some meme coin might perform.” – Marek Olszewski
• The potential of on-chain financial solutions is vast, with opportunities for innovation in currency trading, efficiency, and user experience.
• The integration of traditional financial systems with blockchain technology could reshape the global financial landscape.

Strategic insights for blockchain projects

• The decision to launch EVM L1s may be driven by the existing L1 token premium. “I think like you and I’m like okay like why could they be doing this oh it must be the l 1 token premium that still exists that would this is what a rational actor would do you get this kind of token you can kind of inflate and there’s like sort of a premium associated with that.” – Marek Olszewski
• Finality is a significant factor for payment-focused blockchains, influencing their decision to remain as L1s. “Finality is a big reason we’re payments focused we need to have fast finality and you know there’s some truth to that celo had one block finality as an l one and then we transitioned to becoming l two and now we have to wait for a theory of finality which as you know can take quite a bit longer.” – Marek Olszewski
• The transition to widespread use of self-custodial wallets will take a long time, but significant adoption is already occurring. “I think it will take a while because you need effectively everyone to have a self custodial wallet… but that doesn’t mean that you can’t get very significant percentage of the world’s population… and I think that is certainly increasingly just happening today already.” – Marek Olszewski
• Local currency stablecoins are essential for creating a bankless ecosystem. “For this to really work you also need local currency stablecoins… that’s why we’ve also worked with the mento protocol to help nurture new ecosystems.” – Marek Olszewski
• To effectively onboard everyone in the world into a web3 environment, we need civil resistant mechanisms that are accessible to all, not just those with financial resources. “If you wanna onboard everyone you need to be able to have a civil resistant mechanism that works for everyone.” – Marek Olszewski
• Biometric IDs represent the most trusted attestation of human identity today, which can be leveraged for onboarding in web3. “We wanted to piggyback on the most trusted attestation of humanhood that people have today and that right now is your biometric id.” – Marek Olszewski
• Strategic insights for blockchain projects emphasize the importance of understanding market dynamics, technological advancements, and user needs.
• The future of blockchain development will be shaped by strategic decisions that align with evolving industry trends and user expectations.